The U.S. Government is WASTING it's Time and your Money with ATB 5oz Silver Coins!
- True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Buffalo on -
As of Aug 1st, more than 25 million 2011 bullion silver Eagles have already been sold this year, on pace to set a new annual sales record for the year. Total sales for all bullion versions of the 5 ouncers have been about 1.9 million. Since the Eagles are headed for another new sales record, if there is an attempt to use the 5 ouncers to deter interest in them it apparently isn't working. The Mint also began production of the Eagles in San Francisco to increase production and availability to meet higher demand, not to lower demand. The bullion Eagle and 5 ounce sales represent premiums to the Mint of $50M and approx $3.7M respectively for the year so far. The Mint's premium per ounce is almost identical with both versions, $10 per 5 oz with the Eagles, $9.75 per 5 ounce ATB.
I don't doubt the government would rather see money propping up the stock markets and economy than going into precious metals. But that doesn't seem to keep the government from making a profit all the same, and that is what the Mint is doing here, as they are told to do by Congress and the Treasury Dept. Personally I would rather buy the Eagles than the 5 ouncers as a generic form of bullion (assuming no particular numismatic value) also, but what is wrong with the Mint offering options when they are making profits on both? It's actually a little refreshing to see a government agency "earn" a reasonable profit instead of just soaking up tax dollars.
Just curious, what did you have in mind regarding the 25¢ denomination?
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on -
Guys, it wasn't the mint or even the government that caused the creation of the 5oz coins. It was the metals lobby, acting through congress. For whatever reasons (which may no longer hold) they wanted larger silver devices to sell to physical metal investors. After the startup frenzy, the premium above spot for the 5oz coins is nearing the premium for 1oz Eagles and once it drops below that mark, the metal lobby will have what it wanted, a cheaper but attractive (to investors) US bullion vehicle. Whether or not physical metal investors will embrace the 5oz coins remains to be seen, that certainly wasn't going to happen until they were cheaper per ounce than the 1oz coins, a factor that has been delayed by the numismatic interest in the 5oz bullion offerings. Remember, the numismatic arm of the mint is really just fluff in the minds of most in congress and the treasury dept, even though it is s great money maker. The circulation coinage for the Federal Reserve and the bullion coin production for the metals industry are the primary focuses at the mint.
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Permalink Reply by CaptainOverkill on -
First of all, as others have said, the US Mint is not responsible for making these coins, it was mandated by an act of Congress.
Second, I really don't see a problem with them making coins like this. The Mint's job is not to help survivalist types prepare for the collapse of the US currency. The Mint's job is to produce the circulating coinage of the United States and produce gold and silver bullion on the side. Last year the Mint produced almost 35 million silver eagles, in 2009 it produced 30 million. 2011 looks set to be another banner year for sales of silver eagles. There are more than enough silver eagles out there for collectors and survivalists alike, the mania phase of the gold/silver rush has yet to really begin. Don't get me started on the tons of junk silver and silver bars and foreign mint products as alternative options.
I do agree that 5 oz silver coins are not the best things to be carrying around in the event of some systemic societal collapse, but that isn't what they're intended for in the first place - they are intended to promote the AtB program and make a little money for the Mint on the side with the numismatic versions. In this, I feel that they are doing a fairly good job. There is no sign that the Mint will slow or stop sales of silver eagles to force people to buy AtBs.
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Permalink Reply by True Money on -
I am simply aknowledging that this is simply NOT a monetized coin unless you consider it a quarter-dollar. All coins minted by the U.S. Mint must carry a denomination. Do these coins carry a denomination apart from the "QUARTER DOLLAR" on the obverse? Why shouldn't it carry a denomination of "FIVE DOLLARS" as it is 5 times larger than the 1oz Silver Eagle? Common sense tells you this is a novelty item, not a coin. It is merely a medal.
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Indentured Servant on -
Uhh....why does it matter? I thought that these were supposed to be representations of the National Parks Quarter Dollar done in five ounces of fine silver? Is that not what they are?
The initial "frenzy" over these was due almost entirely to flippers trying to capitalize on on a new coin (most definitely not a medal) with a low mintage. If you like them.......buy them. If not.......buy something else. There is no need to disparage them just because you can.The time to whine about these things is BEFORE your elected representatives vote in favor of the Acts that authorize them.
One more thing.....since when did it become a new thing for the govt to be wasting its time and our money? Seems like "situation normal" to me. At least they are consistent.
Bill
True Money said:I am simply aknowledging that this is simply NOT a monetized coin unless you consider it a quarter-dollar. All coins minted by the U.S. Mint must carry a denomination. Do these coins carry a denomination apart from the "QUARTER DOLLAR" on the obverse? Why shouldn't it carry a denomination of "FIVE DOLLARS" as it is 5 times larger than the 1oz Silver Eagle? Common sense tells you this is a novelty item, not a coin. It is merely a medal.
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on
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None of the US bullion coins carry a face value that is anywhere near their intrinsic value as precious metal. Some other mints some closer but none really try to put a face value that is intended to be utilized in any real trade situation. Congress mandated the quarter dollar value apparently to make the coin a more faithful replica of the circulating coin it mimics. From a metal standpoint, the coins are more clearly marked than the Eagle with ".999 FINE SILVER 5.0 OUNCE" on the edge. THe Eagle only says "1OZ FINE SILVER", not clearly defining the fact that it is 0.999. Also, it appears from the coins that I have that the Eagle is one troy ounce total weight and the ATB is five troy ounces silver weight with a total weight of 5.005 Toz. To be honest, I do wish that we would have marked out bullion coins with a value consistent with the gold and silver coins we last produced for circulation. Those coins maintained the classic 16:1 gold to silver value ratio with 0.77346 Toz in the silver dollar and 0.9675 Toz in the gold twenty. Using that notion would result in the admittedly bizarre face values of $1.29 for the Silver Eagle, $6.46 for the ATB, and $20.67 for the gold 1 Toz coins but at least it would have some historical reference and would make it easier to compare them to the older coins, which are still in abundant supply. Of course, the US was not consistent with our silver coins, with the dollar having more than twice the silver in the half but that was done to make the dollar closer to international standards of the time since the dollar was expected to be used in foreign trade ans the fractional coins weren't. Since the world wide deregulation of precious metal prices it is no longer possible to assign truly meaningful face values to these coins other than within a given metal and as long as the metal content is specified, the face value is without meaning anyway. The ratio of value of one metal to another varies so much that trying to compare one metal to another via a face value is an exercise in futility. Today, gold is once again poised to match platinum in price per ounce and is sitting at roughly 42 times the price of silver. Of course, all of the metals have strayed far from their values as useful entities as they have increasingly become vehicles of investment and speculation. Gold has probably been the most predictable vehicle, with a rough approximation of its value over the past 30 years being a steady $450 an ounce until 2005 and then rising at $200 per year since then. The other metals have had lots of ups and downs as various factors have influenced their respective spot prices.
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Permalink Reply by Buffalo on
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The 5 ounce bullion ATB issues are defined by the legislation that created them as coins, not medals or tokens, however anyone else chooses to view them:
TITLE II--BULLION INVESTMENT PRODUCTS
SEC. 201. SILVER BULLION COIN.
Section 5112 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by
inserting after subsection (t) (as added by title I of this Act) the
following new subsection:
``(u) Silver Bullion Investment Product.--
``(1) In general.--The Secretary shall strike and make
available for sale such number of bullion coins as the Secretary
determines to be appropriate that are exact duplicates of the
quarter dollars issued under subsection (t), each of which
shall--
``(A) have a diameter of 3.0 inches and weigh 5.0
ounces;
``(B) contain .999 fine silver;
[[Page 122 STAT. 5043]]
``(C) have incused into the edge the fineness and
weight of the bullion coin;
``(D) bear an inscription of the denomination of
such coin, which shall be `quarter dollar';
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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As I have said many times before, why can't this coin be of smaller diameter, greater thickness, and much higher relief? That may be a product I would be willing to purchase.
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Indentured Servant on
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All the answers you seek are in the post by Buffalo immediately above your last post. For more info see here: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml
BillTrue Money said:
As I have said many times before, why can't this coin be of smaller diameter, greater thickness, and much higher relief? That may be a product I would be willing to purchase.
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on
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Almost surely, if congress had not been so specific about the attributes of the ATB bullion instruments we would have had a more likable coin for collecting purposes. The 3 inch diameter severely limited what the mint could do and still keep bullion margins low enough to satisfy the metals market. If the original legislation had specified a diameter of "at least two inches", something that would still make it the largest coin available, we might have been presented with a coin of much higher relief and aesthetic value. The edge of the ATB coins is all but pathetic, a largely plain surface with the short text ".999 FINE SILVER 5.0 OUNCE" on only one of the three collar pieces. Two thirds of the rim is just blank and smooth, boring! Some stars or even some artful engraving would have been nice.
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Permalink Reply by Buffalo on
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Unfortunately the priorities of the Congress and the Mint don't always agree with what we might prefer to see as collectors. Since we are mainly talking about the bullion issues here, and the goal of Congress in the legislation I quoted above was to produce a "bullion investment product", from their perspectives I think they would see little to be gained from high relief, much more elaborate edge treatments, and so on. I agree they would be nice, but like someone said earlier the established priorities are circulation coins, bullion coins, and numismatic items in that order, so our likes and dislikes are typically not their biggest concern.
Actually I would think most of the legislators who vote on these acts probably have little knowledge of what collectors would or would not like. Bill's suggestion to contact them directly and make your opinions known is a good one.
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on
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A point I was trying to make is that congress actually made it difficult for the mint to produce the bullion instrument by specifying the diameter at 3 inches. The mint had some difficulty and spent a fair amount of money making the coin work at the specified size. Congress was actually prepared to give the mint relief from that spec that would given us collectors a more desirable coin but by the time they were going to do it, the mint had spent the money and solved the problems associated with a large, thin coin. The whole point of the program was to produce a large, US government backed silver bullion instrument that would have lower per ounce markup above spot than the existing 1 ounce coins, and it finally looks like these ATBs might reach that goal.
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