Liberty Dollars - Right or Wrong
What do you all think of the Liberty Dollars? I imagine quite a few of the folks here are familiar with them. It would be interesting to hear both sides of the argument at Bernard Von NotHaus’ trial.
Some of the press I’ve read about Bernard’s operation did paint him to be a scammer but was that just government propaganda? I sort of have to applaud a guy who takes a stand against all this phony money that our government is printing.
The link below is to an interesting article about a few situations where someone has tried to buck (no pun intended) the system only to be squashed by the government.
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/sanders/sanders072809.html
Some of the press I’ve read about Bernard’s operation did paint him to be a scammer but was that just government propaganda? I sort of have to applaud a guy who takes a stand against all this phony money that our government is printing.
The link below is to an interesting article about a few situations where someone has tried to buck (no pun intended) the system only to be squashed by the government.
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/sanders/sanders072809.html
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Aidan Work on -
Dave,
The so-called 'Liberty Dollars' are illegal.
Here's an article about them; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar .
Bernard Von NotHaus needs to have his name changed to 'Bernard Von NutHouse'.
Aidan.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Archibald on -
They may be illegal but they sure are collectible! The value of some of the early issues has skyrocketed in value over the last couple of years. ~ Jim
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Permalink Reply by Dave on -
Thanks for the link Aidan. I read the article but I’m still not convinced that the “concept” should be deemed illegal. Actually, according to the article some treasury officials have stated that they are not illegal. But the U.S. government will definitely do all it can to squash anything like this because they don’t want competition. Conducting business or trade with Liberty Dollars amounts to bartering. Is bartering illegal? I know the government doesn’t like bartering because they feel that they’re getting screwed out of taxes. Some of the folks at this forum swap coins with other members. That’s bartering. Technically when you all do that you’re supposed to treat the swap as a sale and subsequent purchase and report any gains on the sales side of the transaction and pay your appropriate taxes. How many folks here do that? I doubt if anyone would raise their hand to that question. Sometimes we have a funny way of determining when we think it’s OK to look the other way and when it’s OK to cry foul.
When I read about the Liberty Dollars and NORFED a long time ago I wasn’t a big fan of the concept. For things like currency it’s good to have a standard. We don’t need ten different forms of currency out there and it’s dangerous having people create their own money. But the government has abused the monetary system. The government has created money throughout our nation’s history but in the past it was kept under control. NEVER EVER in our history have we printed money though at the rate at which the current administration is doing so. It’s now out of control. Looking at the chart on this makes me want to throw up. They are bankrupting our nation. (Don’t think it can’t happen).
One particular sentence in that article that caught my attention was the following:
The primary difference between the Liberty Dollar and the fiat US dollar is that Liberty Dollars are backed by an objective measure — a weight in metal.
U.S. dollars are no longer backed by anything. So which appears to be a more fundamentally sound principle? Today our government is doing what equates to printing counterfeit money and everyone seems to be OK with it. Most say nothing about it. I don’t understand that. I guess not enough people understand economics.
I think where Von Nothaus messed up was in being too aggressive with the marketing – perhaps making misleading statements regarding the coins. Probably shouldn’t have put a denomination of the coins either, but if they’re not suggesting or stating that they are “legal tender” then what makes them illegal? From what I recall, some of Von Nothaus’ other operations appeared to be shady and that unfortunately defines his character. As for the Liberty Dollars specifically, it’s OK for him to make a profit, but the premiums seemed a bit high.
I’ll withhold judgment on Von Nothaus though until both sides are fully heard. I will admit… I appreciate his passion and willingness to take such a stand against what I consider to be an injustice that is being committed by our government. If anything he helps bring attention to the situation. Remember that Boston Tea Party they had about 250 years ago?... That was about excessive taxation and government control. Yes, that was a foreign government back then, but sometimes the conflict comes from within. History has a way of repeating itself.
I might have to hop over to eBay and take another look at those NORFEDs. ;-)
Aidan Work said:Dave,
The so-called 'Liberty Dollars' are illegal.
Here's an article about them; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar .
Bernard Von NotHaus needs to have his name changed to 'Bernard Von NutHouse'.
Aidan.
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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To that point… they do sell on eBay. If they were considered counterfeit then eBay would pull the listings. So they’re not considered counterfeit… just illegal…
If they’re illegal and we’re not allowed to barter with them… isn’t that the same as not allowing people to barter with any type of tangible property? In the olden days it was quite common for people to barter with such things as livestock.
Remember… one of the main reasons that governments created “currencies” was to have a method for easily collecting taxes. They didn’t want someone walking into the local gov’t office and paying their taxes with a herd of cattle.
Jim Archibald said:They may be illegal but they sure are collectible! The value of some of the early issues has skyrocketed in value over the last couple of years. ~ Jim
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Permalink Reply by Jim Archibald on
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Dave, Don't count on ebay to pull "counterfeits" There are thousands of Chinese made American coins "supposedly" counterstamped replica on ebay at any given time, non of which have a counterstamp. Yet, I'm positive this is common knowledge and yet ebay ignores them. Even though Canada has now managed to get all the Canadian "replica" coins pulled from their auction. ~ Jim
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Permalink Reply by Aidan Work on
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Jim,
This is why FleaBay's reputation is in the sewer,& going down further.The same thing applies to PayPal.
Have a read here; http://www.ic3.gov ,here; http://www.paypalwarning.com ,& here; http://www.ripoffreport.com .
Both FleaBay & PayPal are like 100,000,000,000,000 lb. gorillas that need to be taken down in a huge way.
Aidan.
Jim Archibald said:Dave, Don't count on ebay to pull "counterfeits" There are thousands of Chinese made American coins "supposedly" counterstamped replica on ebay at any given time, non of which have a counterstamp. Yet, I'm positive this is common knowledge and yet ebay ignores them. Even though Canada has now managed to get all the Canadian "replica" coins pulled from their auction. ~ Jim
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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Jim, eBay is in a tough spot as far as counterfeiting goes. They can’t go out and physically touch every listing to see that it’s legit. If the Chinese seller is claiming that it’s stamped “copy” or “replica” then the listing abides by eBay’s requirements. So unless someone gets the coins and then complains…
You’re right though. They don’t stamp them. I knowingly bought some fake Morgans from a Chinese seller a while back. I used them in art projects. I actually wanted them to be stamped so I’d be within the law. I had to scribe the word “copy” in them myself. It’s scary how well they make them. Someday I’ll have to put up some photos of real ones and fake ones and see if you guys can tell them apart. I had to weigh them to prove to myself that they were fake.
Back to Liberties… The stuff from the Mint that CC posted spells out pretty clearly how NotHaus is getting himself in hot water. I got a chuckle viewing the video at the following site:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Creator_defends_illegal_Ron_Paul_Libe...
NotHaus says they are not “coins” but that they are currency and money. I’d think that right there could get him trouble. On his website - http://www.libertydollar.org/ - he states in the FAQ section the many people made their own money during the Great Depression. I think there is truth to that. Plus, don’t some communities and supermarkets make their own medallions that can be spent only in their establishments?
NotHaus is either ahead of his time or he needs to change his name to NutHaus as Aidan suggested. Anyways… I think they’re actually nice looking coins… ummm excuse me… medallions. I’ll probably add some to the “coin” collection.
Jim Archibald said:Dave, Don't count on ebay to pull "counterfeits" There are thousands of Chinese made American coins "supposedly" counterstamped replica on ebay at any given time, non of which have a counterstamp. Yet, I'm positive this is common knowledge and yet ebay ignores them. Even though Canada has now managed to get all the Canadian "replica" coins pulled from their auction. ~ Jim
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Permalink Reply by Jim Archibald on
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Dave, I actually purchased 10 1964-D Peace Dollar's to use as key rings, they had obvious flaws(to me) and were underweight. I counterstamped them with the club counterstamp "USCC" as a souvenir. I doubt that a 1964-D Peace Dollar would really fool any serious collector. Also, the "toning" was applied by hand, probably a wood stain, very amaturish. The real trouble begins are the next level, well made dies struck on Silver planchets. They have been known to create counterfeits that fool the experts, ~ Jim
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