2011 "25TH ANNIVERSARY SET" Silver Eagle Grades from PCGS
2011 uncirculated..............................69/69/69/69/69
2011-S uncirculated..........................69/69/69/69/70
2011-W burnished uncirculated.......68/70/70/70/70
2011-W proof (DCAM).......................69/69/69/69/70
2011-P reverse proof........................68/68/69/69/69
So, as you can see, PCGS is much more strict than NGC! If I had submitted them to NGC the 69s would have received 70s (with NGC) and the 68s would have received 69s (with NGC). These were eligible for "FIRST STRIKE" but I wanted the coins graded with uniform special "25th ANNIVERSARY SET" labels to create uniform sets. As you can see, the burnished coin prevents me from building a matched set in 69. However, I am pleased that 4 of the burnished coins received "TRUE" MS70 grades.
-True Money!
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on -
TM, this info was posted on another board about three weeks ago. It shows that PCGS had handed out 70s to over half of the coins submitted under FS service at that time. Your results clearly aren't that good but then that is what statistics are all about, small sample sizes don't provide much usable info. I don't agree with your claim that coins would grade a whole level higher at NGC. While I do think their grading is easier, I think that it is less than half a grade at most, probably more like an average of 1/3 of a grade.
You could always ask for some of the 2011-W uncircs to be regraded to get some 69 sets.
PCGS report for FIRST STRIKE:
2011-P - total graded 6,110
PR70 = 3,346 (55%)
PR69 = 2,625
2011-S total graded 6,065
MS70 = 3,229 (53%)
MS69 = 2,724
2011-W proof - total graded 5,864
PR70 = 3,282 (56%)
PR69 = 2,391
2011-W - total graded 5,823
MS70 = 3,468 (69%)
MS69 = 2,129
2011 no mint mark - total graded 5,858
MS70 = 3,229 (55%)
MS69 = 2,459
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Permalink Reply by True Money on -
Looking at this information tells me that PCGS does show biased behavior in terms of rewarding more 70s for an extra $18 per coin for grading. I suspect I have the better deal in the end since most people will catch on to this biased behavior for "FIRST STRIKE" designations. I can guarantee that the numbers are somewhat different for the coins without "FIRST STRIKE" designation. These coins were submitted under the "Modern" service about a month after I received them (intentionally). I want the actual grade, not an inflated grade. In reference, I think these coins are more accurately graded than those with "FIRST STRIKE" labels. I think you will see these coins without "FIRST STRIKE" nonsense achieve higher prices in the market. "FIRST STRIKE" = "INFLATED GRADE"! Numbers don't lie.
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on
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I haven't seen any evidence that PCGS shifts it's grades based on the level of service requested. If you are basing your conclusion on the grades given to your five sets then I would say that you need to get a lot more information before concluding that grades are being shifted. Perhaps when there are 5,000 or so non FS grades to look at it would be a valid comparison, but even then, especially for the bullion coin, the sample size is small compared to the number of coins struck with a single die pair. There were plenty of people in those 1000+ five set FS grades that received grades similar to yours. Five sets is far too small of a sample to draw any conclusions from.
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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I know what you are saying Clair due my scientific background. However, I have seen grades posted by others on here that received grades similar to mine and they did not pay for the false-meaning phrase either. The grades posted by Steve in his discussion were ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE! Of course, his were some of the first graded by NGC! Apparently, there are much fewer coins within the grading pool that my coins fall within with totals of only 100 to 250 within the grade, not 4,000 to 6,000 that are graded as "FIRST STRIKE". These coins should have the special "25TH ANNIVERSARY SET" label or carry this designation within the regular label. This is what I want - uniform grading labels with the proper information and grade!
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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Based on my grades, this is the information I can compile on the populations of these coins with "standard" (non-FIRST STRIKE) labels.
2011
MS68-?
MS69-250
MS70-?
2011-S
MS68-?
MS69-272
MS70-103
2011-W
MS68-28
MS69-?
MS70-157
2011-W
PR68DCAM-?
PR69DCAM-240
PR70DCAM-149
2011-P
PR68-27
PR69-220
PR70-?
This is the information I could find in the Coin Verification section for my coins. As you can see, there appears to be a much smaller percentage of these grading 70 than those with "FIRST STRIKE" nonsense!
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Bruce Wiseley on -
This conversation is interesting to me, because I'm a novice, and only collect for my pleasure. 1.- Did you buy the sets to re-sell T.M.? 2.- If not, then were you just experimenting to see what grade you would receive? 3.- If you are correct regarding how and why PCGS arrives at their grades, do you really thing that the people buying sets, and individual graded coins really care how and why???
The boys on TV coin shows continue to sell the highly graded coins, with and without the different labels. And they sell quite a few. Interesting topic though, even though all the numbers will probably make my eyes bleed soon, lol!!!
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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Bruce,
I bought the sets with the idea of having them graded and certified specifically as coming from these special sets. I wanted to keep the top grades in my personal collection. However, I have legitimate information from PCGS's population reports that ABSOLUTELY CONFIRM my worries! I will be in contact with David Hall, my editor, and possibly the Better Business Bureau. I am confident that my coins were graded correctly. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of FIRST STRIKE coins have inflated grades they don't deserve. I have proof and PCGS provided it for me!
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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These numbers are FRIGHTENING and may cause serious concern to those who collect FIRST STRIKE coins - especially in the top grade of 70! These are the populations for the "25TH ANNIVERSARY SET" coins as of Wednesday, January 12, 2012.
COIN. GRADE TOTAL. FIRST STRIKE. NON-FIRST STRIKE
2011. MS70. 5411 (52.39%) 5268 (53.21%) 143 (33.41%)
MS69. 4526 (43.82%) 4276 (43.19%) 250 (58.41%)
MS68. 346 (3.35%) 316 (3.19%) 30 (7.01%)
TOTAL. 10,329. 9901. 428
2011-S. MS70. 5496 (50.62%) 5393 (51.52%) 103 (26.34%)
MS69. 5083 (46.81%) 4811 (45.96%) 272 (69.57%)
MS68. 243 (2.24%) 230 (2.20%) 13 (3.32%)
TOTAL. 10,858. 10,467. 391
2011-W. MS70. 5669 (55.10%) 5512 (55.87%) 157 (37.20%)
MS69. 4094 (39.79%) 3871 (39.24%) 223 (52.84%)
MS68. 497 (4.83%) 459 (4.65%) 38 (9.00%)
TOTAL. 10,288. 9866. 422
2011-W. PR70DCAM. 5546 (53.71%) 5397 (54.51%) 149 (35.14%)
PR69DCAM. 4394 (42.56%) 4154 (41.96%) 240 (56.60%)
PR68DCAM. 340 (3.29%) 313 (3.16%) 27 (6.37%)
TOTAL. 10,325. 9901. 424
2011-W. PR70. 5677 (52.34%) 5550 (52.99%) 127 (33.96%)
PR69. 4861 (44.81%) 4641 (44.31%) 220 (58.82%)
PR68. 296 (2.73%) 269 (2.57%) 27 (7.22%)
TOTAL. 10,847. 10,473. 374
TOTALS. 52,647. 50,608 (96.13%) 2,039 (3.87%)
It appears that grades can be bought at PCGS if you submit coins as "FIRST STRIKE" for an additional $18 per coin. These are the facts! Notice how few coins have been submitted without "FIRST STRIKE" designation. Many may say that this sample size is not large enough. If these "FIRST STRIKE" coins received accurate grades, similar results would occur for those without the designation. This is obviously not the case!
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Clair Alan Hardesty on
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TM, there are still not enough non FS coins graded to prove anything. You will need at least ten times more non FS coins before you can even claim that any sort of trend exists. Your sample size is far too small at this time. You show close to 10,000 FS coins and about 400 non FS coins. Your sample of 0.4% of the sets is not anywhere near enough to substantiate your claims. Come back with numbers when you have 5 or 10 thousand non FS coins graded.
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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Claire,
The trend is obvious! The rate of 70s is uniformly far lower for NON-FIRST STRIKES! You are one of the most intelligent people on here. How is this uniformly possible for each coin?
-True Money!
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Permalink Reply by Buffalo on -
I have to agree that the sample sizes are too small for the non-FS grades. It is easy to assume something from a small amount of data that seems perfectly logical but can still be completely wrong. I once did a 100 coin submission for non-FS grading with PCGS. 49 of the coins graded 70, so 49% 70 grades received. I did another unrelated submission of 160 coins for FS grading with PCGS, and only 17 coins graded 70, so only 10.6% 70 grades received for those. Based on just that small sample size of 260 coins total, "logic" would tell me that PCGS gives out 70 grades 5 times more often if you don't pay extra for the FS label. I wouldn't make that claim and certainly wouldn't claim my experiences was any kind of proof. From my own personal experiences, I have not seen anything that leads me to believe PCGS has graded my coins differently because of the amount I was charged for grading, FS, etc.
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Permalink Reply by True Money on
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Buffalo,
I must agree that the sample size is very low. However, you have to look at the trends with each coin. How is it then that each coin in 70 grades 19% to 25% less often if it is not a FIRST STRIKE. Doesn't anyone else find this absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to believe? Obviously, if the grading is truly unbiased, the rate of 70s should be cinsiderably the same or higher for those that don't say FIRST STRIKES.
Take this into consideration. Each grader knows whether the extra $18 per coin was paid because of the separate submission numbers and the fact that "FIRST STRIKE" appears on the screen when they scan the coin for grading.
-True Money!
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